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Senator McConnell. So, you had one sort of Mr. Fix-it that took care of it?
Mr. Morales. For the police, yes, and for the immigration and all. Sometimes I did it myself, direct. Many times I did it myself. And I used to pay another gentleman who will be the one in charge of the unloading and stash houses, whatever.
Senator McConnell. So, each separate transaction triggered a different series of bribes? You didn't sort of pay by the week or the month, or something like that?
Mr. Morales. You're right.
Senator McConnell. You went through this on every single day. You were going through it?
Mr. Morales. Yes. Sometimes I did it every single day. Sometimes it took weeks, maybe months, to do it.
Senator McConnell. Did the size of the haul affect how many people you had to bribe?
Mr. Morales. Yes, it did.
Senator McConnell. What percentage of the amount of money involved in a given transaction would be required to pay off everybody you needed to pay off to make it work?
Mr. Morales. Senator, that will be very hard for me to explain to you because of the different types of drug related trips. It's not the same thing to pay off for a small plane, with 2,000, 2,500, 2,800 pounds of marijuana, as the same plane with 500,000 kilos of cocaine.
Senator McConnell. One a percentage basis, though, we it roughly the same?
Mr. Morales. No. It goes with the type of merchandise, and also goes with the amount of drugs involved on it.
Senator McConnell. Did you personally pay off government officials?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did.
Senator McConnell. Were they members of the parliament?
Mr. Yavitz. This is a very touchy question and requires a very delicate answer. He's not prepared to give that answer in public.
Senator McConnell. But was the answer that he did pay off elected officials, not just appointed functionaries, but elected officials as well?
Mr. Morales. Yes. Yes, I did, directly myself.
Senator McConnell. Did you have much contact with the competition, so to speak, the other people involved in the same kind of illicit drug trading you were involved in? Would you run into other people doing the same thing?
Mr. Morales. Senator, I used to have Aviation Activities in Opalaca. It is FOB, a fixed operation base. Most of the planes, the trips that we did, legal trips, they were going out of Opalaca to the Bahamas. I owned a company for a long time. Therefore, I was, used to see these people every single day. Everybody. And also I run across them in the Bahamas, when I was doing my activities, my illegal activities.
Yes, I did.
Senator McConnell. Yes, you did what?

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Mr. Morales. I did, saw other competitors while I was doing my illegal activities. Yes, I did.
Senator McConnell. Almost every day, did you?
Mr. Morales. I used to se them every day. You have to understand something, Senator. Have you ever been in the Bahamas?
Senator McConnell. No.
Mr. Morales. Can I explain to you?
Senator McConnell. Yes.
Mr. Morales. OK. Let's take, for instance, Gran Inagua. Gran Inagua has only one taxi, has only one bus, it's stationed in Casa Station, and has only one hotel. So, therefore, whatever you want to do on that island, you have to go to the No. 1 guy. It's only one road, and about 20, 30, 50 families. Everybody knows each other. I believe, and I'm sure that's the only source of income. Therefore, it's very obvious for me or for anybody else to go over there and find out what's going on and see the same people.
Senator McConnell. So, in that particular area, drug trafficking was the only source of income?
Mr. Morales. That I know of it, yes.
Senator McConnell. It totally dominated the economy, then? Does it totally dominate the economy of the Bahamas?
Mr. Morales. Do you want me to draw that conclusion? Do you want me to tell you the way I feel?
Senator McConnell. Well, your opinion. I know that you're not an economist on the Bahamas.
Mr. Morales. Yes. Yes, it is.
Senator McConnell. How successful were the interdiction efforts of this country during the period you were operating?
Mr. Morales. Can you be more specific about that question, Senator?
Senator McConnell. How successful were the interdiction efforts of this country during the period you were operating between the Bahamas and the United States.
Mr. Morales. I had not even had a problem.
Senator McConnell. I had no impact on your work at all -
Mr. Morales. Not whatsoever.
Senator McConnell. [continuing]. Until they caught you?
Mr. Morales. Not whatsoever.
Senator McConnell. From what you know, have the recent interdiction efforts of the United States had any impact on the drug trafficking between the Bahamas and the United States?
Mr. Morales. I don't think so, Senator.
Senator McConnell. So, you don't think the increase in efforts have had any impact on it at all?
Mr. Morales. Not whatsoever.
Senator McConnell. If you were in our shoes, you're pretty experienced at this business.
Mr. Morales. Yes, I was.
Senator McConnell. You did it for a while and made a lot of money, presumably.
Mr. Morales. Yes, I was.

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Senator McConnell. If you were in our seats, what would you do?
Mr. Morales. Probably legalize the drugs. [Laughter.]
Senator McConnell. What's your second choice? [Laughter.]
Mr. Morales. I'm sorry, Senator, I didn't mean to be - but that's, quite frankly, the answer, legalize the drugs.
Senator McConnell. But assuming that's not like to answer, what's your second choice?
Mr. Morales. The second choice - I really don't know. It's impossible to do it.
Senator McConnell. Impossible?
Mr. Morales. Yes, it is, because every single day -
Senator McConnell. So, in your view, we're sort of wasting our time?
Mr. Morales. Yes, in sort of a way, yes. Every single day has more and more people in the business. You know, it became a major, major way to live, major - how do you say -
Senatory Kerry. Source of income?
Mr. Morales. Yes, a major source of income, especially in the Bahamas. That's the only income they have whatsoever.
Senator McConnell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Kerry. Thank you very much, Senator. We will be briefed this afternoon by the CIA, if you can make yourself available.
Senator McConnell. I'll be available.
Senator Kerry. We can get further information, I hope. Mr. Chairman, do you have any questions you would like to ask at this point?
The Chairman. No questions, thank you. I just want to get the flavor of the hearing.
Senator Kerry. Thank you very much. We appreciate your presence.
The Chairman. I want to congratulate you and Senator McConnell on pursuing this line of inquiry.
Senator Kerry. Thank you very much. I want to come back to something. I want to ask you more about Cuba. This is the first time you've ever talked abut Cuba; am I correct?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. You've never mentioned that you had any narcotics involvement in Cuba before.
Mr. Morales. I did mention it through my attorneys to the U.S. prosecutor in south Florida many times.
Senator Kerry. But publicly you've never said that?
Mr. Morales. No, never - I don't think so. Not that I recall. I don't think so.
Senator Kerry. Before I revisit the issue of the gunrunning, which we need to get into in more detail, let me ask you this. How did you get into Cuba? How were you able to exit and to entrance?
Mr. Morales. Since I recall, that was from the Mariel time, and also through a friend of mine, who used to deal with the Cuban authorities about the drug activities.

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Senator Kerry. Did you also pay money there in order to facilitate that?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Did you pay money through your friend, who paid people, or did you pay people directly?
Mr. Morales. Directly.
Senator Kerry. You paid them directly?
Mr. Morales. I did.
Senator Kerry. How did you get the overflight permission? Where did that come from?
Mr. Morales. You just have to have a code.
Senator Kerry. Who gave you the code?
Mr. Morales. The officials, Cuban officials.
Senator Kerry. And you had your special code, personal code?
Mr. Morales. A special, personal code. I did.
Senator Kerry. Did that code change ever?
Mr. Morales. No.
Senator Kerry. It was always the same code?
Mr. Morales. Always the same one.
Senator Kerry. Over what period of time were you involved in narcotics trafficking with Cuba?
Mr. Morales. Since early 1980 to 1985-5-many years. Many years. I would say probably my last trip to Cuba was in 198--.
Senator Kerry. Did you fly in in one of your aircraft?
Mr. Morales. I used to go in and out in my own aircraft, yes, I did.
Senator Kerry. Did you fly in the same aircraft each time?
Mr. Morales. No. Different aircraft each time. I flew probably three or four aircraft. But I didn't go one after the other one in the same aircraft, no.
Senator Kerry. Where would you fly from?
Mr. Morales. I would fly from Miami, Opalaca, my airport. Sometimes from Executive Airport in Fort Lauderdale.
Senator Kerry. Did you file a flight plan?
Mr. Morales. No, I did not.
Senator Kerry. How would you deal with the American defense system?
Mr. Morales. You don't have to deal with that, Senator.
Senator Kerry. Why?
Mr. Morales. You just have to have a plane, have a pilot, and jump in a plane, take off.
Senator Kerry. Well, don't we have surveillance of aircraft coming out of Cuba?
Mr. Morales. Probably, but I never had to deal with no such a thing like that.
Senator Kerry. You just flew in?
Mr. Morales. I flew from here directly to Havana.
Senator Kerry. What altitude did you fly at?
Mr. Morales. Out of there to here?
Senator Kerry. From the United States to Cuba.
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did.
Senator Kerry. What altitude?
Mr. Morales. Oh, the altitude - 11,000 feet; sometimes 8,000. You know, you approach the island, you go down.

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Senator Kerry. Did you fly low to avoid radar at any place?
Mr. Morales. Say that again, Senator?
Senator Kerry. Did you fly low to avoid radar at any location?
Mr. Morales. Me flying the plane, being in the plane?
Senator Kerry. Yes. When you were in the plane going to Cuba, did you try to avoid radar at all?
Mr. Morales. Sometimes, yes.
Senator Kerry. Sometimes.
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Why only sometimes?
Mr. Morales. When I went from Cuba to the Bahamas, I had to fly low, maybe because we wanted to see the ocean, but not really particularly to avoid the radar.
Senator Kerry. But not to avoid the radar.
Mr. Morales. I really don't know. I don't recall flying one time specifically just to do that. Sometimes we did it inside the United States, yes, to avoid the radar.
Senator Kerry. Did the Cubans solicit assistance from you regarding drug trafficking?
Mr. Morales. They are in the business to make money, Senator. So any type of, sort of speaking, any type of business, they're willing to do with you, especially with you well known in the business, like I was in those times.
Senator Kerry. Did there come a time when you were invited to Havana?
Mr. Morales. Yes, many times.
Senator Kerry. How did that come about?
Mr. Morales. That was in 1984.
Senator Kerry. Why were you invited to Havana?
Mr. Morales. I went over there to visit some of my wife's relatives, relatives.
Senator Kerry. That was pleasure, then?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Where did you stay?
Mr. Morales. I stayed in the Triton Hotel, Havana.
Senator Kerry. Did you talk to government officials at that point in time?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did. Many of them.
Senator Kerry. Did they personally identify themselves to you?
Mr. Morales. Yes, sir. They did.
Senator Kerry. Was there any discussion about intelligence gathering at that time?
Mr. Morales. Can you repeat? Can you be more specific about that question, Senator, please?
Senator Kerry. Did they ask you to engage in any intelligence.
Mr. Morales. To engage with them in -
Senator Kerry. Intelligence gathering, information, intelligence.
Mr. Morales. For them?
Senator Kerry. Yes.
Mr. Morales. No. If they did, I don't recall.
Senator Kerry. Did they make any offers to you of any kind?
Mr. Morales. Yes, they did.

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Senator Kerry. About what?
Mr. Morales. For instance, to be there, to avoid my charges, because I was facing so many years. They offered me the island. They offered me my own code, which I did have. They offered me island, different than Cuba. They offered me a runway, bank, house.
Senator Kerry. Why didn't you accept that?
Mr. Morales. I did some. I did accept some of it.
Senator Kerry. What did you accept?
Mr. Morales. I did accept the house, and my code to go in and out of Cuba without no problem whatsoever. I did accept bank transactions. I did accept to buy gold in their own banks.
Senator Kerry. So, this was to facilitate your drug trafficking?
Mr. Morales. Sort of speaking, yes.
Senator Kerry. What year was this?
Mr. Morales. In 1984 and 1985.
Senator Kerry. This was after your indictment.
Mr. Morales. Yes, and before that, too. I want to make that clear, for the record. In 1980, when I went for the Mariel, I met very high officials, which I was also offered different types of transactions, different types of deals, business. They wanted to buy, also, Senator, any type of, they wanted to get any type, to buy any type of merchandise, you know, boats.
Senator Kerry. Let me ask Senator McConnell if on Cuba he has anything he wants to ask, before we move into another area.
Senator McConnell. No, thank you.
Senator Kerry. Let me come back to the question now of guns and Contras. You say the first contact was made in, you met in 1983, but the first contact to actually assist in getting guns was in 1984. Is that correct?
Mr. Morales. I did send some guns in 1983.
Senator Kerry. You sent some guns in 1983.
Mr. Morales. Yes, 1983.
Senator Kerry. What quantity of guns would you send in any shipment?
Mr. Morales. In 1983, I recall sending 40 M-79's, grenade launchers. I do not know where the plane land, other than there was a discussion if they land in Costa Rica or Salvador.
Senator Kerry. Do you remember, at Ilopango?
Mr. Morales. Yes, they did.
Senator Kerry. Do you remember the tail number of that plane?
Mr. Morales. If I'm not mistaken, it's Papa Papa Echo Delta Charlie.
Senator Kerry. What kind of plane?
Mr. Morales. DC-3, C-47. The same as the one the CIA has now in Ilopango, which I gave them in 1984, late 1984, to the CIA.
Senator Kerry. I'm sorry. I didn't follow that.
Mr. Morales. The same plane that I gave to the Contras and the CIA in late 1984. They still have it.
Senator Kerry. You're saying they still have it?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. It's at Ilopango now?

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Mr. Morales. It is there.
Senator Kerry. How do you know that?
Mr. Morales. Because they haven't moved it.
Senator Kerry. How do you know they haven't moved it?
Mr. Morales. I talked to, in the meeting that I had with Mr. Eden Pastoral last year, it was in the beginning of 1986, the last meeting that I had with him, and we discussed the situation with him. That's why I know that the plane is still there.
Senator Kerry. Now that is the only shipment in 1983?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. In 1984, that's when you first had these series of meeting with Popo Chammoro and Marco Aguado; is that correct?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. In 1984?
Mr. Morales. I was formally introduced to them in 1984.
Senator Kerry. Who introduced you to them?
Mr. Morales. Mr. Chammoro's, his wife.
Senator Kerry. Did Martha Healy play any role in that?
Mr. Morales. She is, in fact, Mr. Chammoro's wife.
Senator Kerry. How long a period of time did those meetings go on for? How many times did you meet?
Mr. Morales. About every single day. We just, I used to stay in the same hotel with them.
Senator Kerry. Where?
Mr. Morales. The meetings lasted for days and days and days.
Senator Kerry. Where?
Mr. Morales. In Miami.
Senator Kerry. What hotel?
Mr. Morales. Fontainbleu was one of them. I remember in late 1984, that Octaviano Cesar went with me for a week or 10 days for the offshore powerboat race in Key West.
Senator Kerry. Under whose name did you register at the hotel?
Mr. Morales. I used to have the whole penthouse. It's supposed to be me or my racing team. Maybe, maybe could have been him, himself, because, as I recall, he was first in the penthouse; later on he was in the third floor. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, 315 is the room number.
Senator Kerry. Who was on the third floor?
Mr. Morales. Cesar.
Senator Kerry. Cesar?
Mr. Morales. Cesar Octaviano, yes, and his wife and some friends.
Senator Kerry. In the Fontainbleu Hotel?
Mr. Morales. No. This is in Key West.
Senator Kerry. Oh, Key West.
Mr. Morales. In the Fontainbleu Hotel he was in his own name.
Senator Kerry. Which hotel was he in in Key West?
Mr. Morales. Casa Marina - Case Maria.
Senator Kerry. Case Maria.
Now you say you met with him there?

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Mr. Morales. No. We flew, as a matter of act, we flew one of my helicopters together with my wife and his wife, Martha Healy, down there for the races.
Senator Kerry. And it was in those conversations that the discussion of assisting the Contras came up?
Mr. Morales. No.
Senator Kerry. All right. When did that -
Mr. Morales. All the time. The purpose of the meeting, the conversation, all the time, I don't recall not even one particular time, Senator, that I met iht them that we didn't talk about the guns, drugs, the help.
Senator Kerry. Always?
Mr. Morales. All the time.
Senator Kerry. When was the first trip that you made in which guns went down and drugs came back?
Mr. Morales. That was around July 1984.
Senator Kerry. In 1984?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. How did that arrangement come to be made?
Mr. Morales. With them, with Popo and Octaviano.
Senator Kerry. Was there specific discussion of drugs coming back in the same plane?
Mr. Morales. All the time.
Senator Kerry. Why did that discussion take place?
Mr. Morales. Because that was the purpose of our meeting, Senator. That was the purpose of me helping them out in return for them helping me with my legal problems, in the State Department, CIA, whatever.
Senator Kerry. Now how were you able - I think most of us sit here and say, you know, here you are, in the open daylight of which airport - which this Fort Lauderdale airport?
Mr. Morales. We sent guns from different airports, Senator.
Senator Kerry. All right. You flew guns out of Fort Lauderdale airport?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did.
Senator Kerry. You flew guns out of Miami International Airport?
Mr. Morales. No.
Senator Kerry. Which airport?
Mr. Morales. Out of Opalaca Airport.
Senator Kerry. Opalaca Airport.
Mr. Morales. Many times.
Senator Kerry. What other airports did you fly guns out of?
Mr. Morales. Executive Airport in Fort Lauderdale.
Senator Kerry. Any others?
Mr. Morales. No, sir.
Senator Kerry. Now, here you are, in the light of day, 12 noon, at Fort Lauderdale airport. You are loading an airplane and you're loading guns into the airplane. You didn't worry about anybody stopping you?
Mr. Morales. No. As a matter of fact, I did request, and I did ask, Marcos Aguado, and I remember specifically he telling me not to worry about it, we

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are the CIA, we are going to be around the plane, and don't worry about it.
Senator Kerry. We're going to be what?
Mr. Morales. Around the plane. Around the plane. Do not worry about it, because I was concerned about that situation.
Senator Kerry. Did any Customs agents ever inquire?
Mr. Morales. Never, other than I remember one time one of them -
Senator Kerry. Let me just interrupt you. You were under indictment at this time?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I was.
Senator Kerry. So, you were doing this for a reason; is that correct?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did.
Senator Kerry. What was the reason you were doing this?
Mr. Morales. NO. 1, they promised me, in exchange for my support, to take care of my legal problems. Second, I was sort of paying back what I owe, you know. I feel good doing it because I say at least I'm paying back what I owe them, that I did illegally, between these years. And last, to help them out.
Senator Kerry. Let me ask you a question. Somebody sitting here, listening to you now, you've been convicted to 15, 16 years, I take it the IRS is after you for money; is that right?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. You owe them money?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did - I do.
Senator Kerry. So, you've got a lot of problems; right?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I do.
Senator Kerry. Here you are, sitting here in front of a committee, and you're telling us these things as though they are sort of the normal day, which, for you, I suppose it was, but for us it's not. And we're sitting here listening, and every one of us has to say to ourselves, "You know, is this guy telling the truth? Why should we believe him today?" I want you to address that. Why should I believe what you're saying, sitting here, talking about guns running out of here really easily and drugs coming back in, and this was business as usual?
Mr. Morales. Senator, since last year, right after I got indicted, I tried too many times, many, many, many times, to get a hold of the U.S. prosecutor in south Florida, Miami. And my attorneys, which, at that time, I had about four or five, every one of them contacted the U.S. attorney, Mr. Kellner, Mr. Karadbel, Neil Karadbel, Leon V. Kellner, Lynea Snaeder-Johnson, and some of the other people, and told them about my role with the CIA and the Contras. I have many letters that my attorneys sent, directed to the U.S. prosecutor's office advising them about my role, advising them that I was willing to talk witht hem what I did, that I was doing it for the Government of the United States, and I do not have whatsoever any doubt in my mind until this moment that none of those guys that they introduced to me are, in effect, CIA.

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Senator Kerry. Well, I appreciate what you're saying, and I want tot alk about your efforts to try to tell your story. But why should I believe you? Why should I or any Americans say George Morales is telling the truth today, I believe him.
Mr. Morales. I don't see why not, Senator. Quite frankly, in the beginning, when I started being interviewed with Mr. Gregory and Mr. Jack Blum, that was one of the first things I told Mr. Gregory. I do not want to go on Capital Hill and testify unless I go before through the lie detector test. I'm willing. I'm here. I'm willing to do it.
Senator Kerry. When did you tell Mr. Gregory you would take the lie detector test?
Mr. Morales. All the time.
Senator Kerry. And Mr. Gregory is the assistant U.S. attorney?
Mr. Morales. No.
Senator Kerry. Oh, I'm sorry, excuse me. The House counsel.
Mr. Morales. By the way, I did talk to Mr. Karadbel, the U.S. prosecutor in my case, and I told him, face to face, that I'm willing to do it, and that was 1 week before my sentence.
Senator Kerry. One week before you were sentenced -
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. [continuing]. You told the U.S. attorney's office you would, you were trying to plea bargain; correct?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did.
Senator Kerry. And you were trying to make a deal?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And you said you were willing to tell all of this information.
Mr. Morales. All this information, with the Cuba, and quite a few more things that, because of the nature, of the sensitiveness of this information, all the things that I have to explain, I'm not going to be able to reveal that in public session. He knew about it.
Senator Kerry. Were you ever given a lie detector test?
Mr. Morales. No, never.
Senator Kerry. Nobody has ever given you one?
Mr. Morales. Never, ever.
Senator Kerry. There is no record of your taking one?
Mr. Morales. I have never taken one. I don't even know how to take one, to be quite frank.
Senator Kerry. Are you willing to take one?
Mr. Morales. I'm willing to do it. I'm right here.
Senator Kerry. If this commit asked you to take one?
Mr. Morales. Yes, 100 percent.
Senator Kerry. All right. Now, when did you first have a communication other than your indictment, a discussion with the U.S. attorney's office in Miami regarding your willingness to talk?
Mr. Morales. When was the first time?
Senator Kerry. [Nods affirmatively.]
Mr. Morales. Right after my indictment. Right after I got arrested, June 12, 1986. My attorney, Kate Bonner - B-o-n-n-e-r - had a meeting with Mr. Kellner and Lynea Snaeder-Johnson was at the

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meeting. Mr. Neil Karadbel was at the meeting. Don Carpenter, private investigator, who worked for Mrs. Bonner, was at the meeting. Kellner himself, and my attorney. Consequently to that meeting, my other attorney, by the name of David O'Leary, also contacted Leon Kellner and talked to him about my situation. The response was that they were not interested in politics.
Senator Kerry. Now, this was in 1986?
Mr. Morales. Yes, it was. Yes. Right after my, right after I got arrested on June 12.
Senator Kerry. You were arrested June 12?
Mr. Morales. Yes. And he also, in the meeting that -
Senator Kerry. Let me just go slowly because I want the record, the chronology, to show. On June 12, you were arrested - of 1986?
Mr. Morals. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And reports surfaced publicly about the gunrunning and drug smuggling in the newspapers in Miami during that period; didn't they?
Mr. Morales. Yes, it was.
Senator Kerry. And through the fall?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. When was the first time you were called before the grand jury to give evidence regarding these matters?
Mr. Morales. About a month ago.
Senator Kerry. One month ago?
Mr. Morales. A month ago, yes.
Senator Kerry. In 1987?
Mr. Morales. In 1987. I believe it was a Tuesday. Can you hold one second, please, Senator?
Senator Kerry. Yes.
Mr. Morales. I believe it was Tuesday. I believe it was June 16. That was a Tuesday, I believe, June 16.
Senator Kerry. June 16. All right. Now, during the summer and fall of 1986, did you attempt to make known through your attorneys your willingness to discuss these matters.
Mr. Morales. For the record, Senator, I would like to, for you to be a little bit more specific about what means the "summer"?
Senator Kerry. Well, in 1986.
Mr. Morales. Which months, please?
Senator Kerry. From July -
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. [continuing]. All the way through the rest of the year of 1986.
Mr. Morales. Into?
Senator Kerry. Into 1987.
Mr. Morales. Into 1987. Probably 2 months ago, the last time. The last time I took the effort myself, directly myself, and I talked to the U.S. prosecutor myself about this relation, this situation.
Senator Kerry. But during those months last year, from July to December, did you lawyers communicate to the U.S. attorney's office?

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Mr. Morales. Yes, many times.
Senator Kerry. Did you make yourself available to discuss these matters?
Mr. Morales. All the time. That was the major effort, the major concern, for us to talk to the U.S. prosecutor and inform him about all these several things that we're talking, discussing, today, in this hearing.
Senator Kerry. Counsel, did you want to add something?
Mr. Yavitz. I'd like to point out that initially Mr. Morales was concerned about a plea bargain or improving his position with the Government, and at that time was willing to provide that information to improve his chances with his prosecution. At this particular time, he has already been sentenced, and he is receiving no benefit of any kind by coming here before this committee, or any committee. From a legal standpoint, I have personally been opposed to him doing some of this, both for his own safety and for whatever benefits he can derive, which are basically nil.
So, if someone is concerned about his veracity or truthfulness at this time, here is a man who is coming before this committee with nothing to gain at this time of any value. Actually, it's against his best interests.
We do not have immunity, or my client does not have immunity. He has no witness protection program. He has a U.S. attorney's office in Miami who is totally opposed to him, who has taken such steps as to make sure that no agencies, from any DEA, Customs, or any agency which might be inquiring into this matter or interested in inquiring into this matter, can even deal with him. They have attempted to discredit him.
Senator Kerry. Let me ask you. Wait a minute, now. That's a very serious statement. You're saying that the U.S. attorney has prevented other agencies who want to deal with him from doing so?
Mr. Yavitz. Yes.
Senator Kerry. What other agencies have been prevented from dealing with him.
Mr. Yavitz. Customs, DEA.
Senator Kerry. In what way have they been prevented?
Mr. Yavitz. In order for a person, or a defendant, or an exdefendant, such as Mr. Morales, to deal with an agency, he obviously has to derive some type or enter into some type of agreement whereby what he would say would not be used against him, and the parameters of the agreement, it's usually reduced in the simplest form to a memo. But the agencies, being police and not being attorneys, cannot provide the letter of intent or letter of agreement.
And the U.S. attorney's office has refused to allow their office to be used to secure such an agreement.
So, even though the letter, the memo, could be reduced to a page, or a couple of lines, they have refused to provide that assistance, and, as a matter of fact, have told various agencies and agents not to deal with Mr. Morales at all, and not to deal with his representatives at all.
We have been confronted with that.

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I personally have been confronted with that over the last several months. So, I speak from a position of total knowledge that we have had that type of confrontation with the U.S. attorney's office.
Mr. Morales, being here today, even though he is subpoenaed, could readily have invoked the fifth amendment.
As a matter of fact, that was my initial preference when we came here today. And I discussed with Mr. Blum my personal reluctance, my opinion, and my reluctance as an attorney, in allowing him to do that, in allowing him to testify, and made it very clear to Mr. Blum how I felt that this was prejudicial to Mr. Morales' well being and safety, and that there was nothing really to be gained by it.
Mr. Morales at this point is, regardless of having been a convicted drug smuggler or drug dealer, is, nevertheless, not a foreigner, but is an American. What he is actually doing here is simply out of a patriotic standpoint, something he personally cannot convey, and I don't know if he even has gleaned that. But that is the only reason that he can be here today.
Senator Kerry. Let me just say that I appreciate that. We had discussion beforehand about the question, about those issues. I think the record ought to also show that he is currently under a grant of Federal immunity as to his activities involving the Contras, I believe.
Mr. Yavitz. No, no. What had happened in the U.S. attorney's office, through the Justice Department, secured an immunity grant, which took effect upon the court issuing an order to grant him immunity. But until he testified, and he has not testified, the immunity does not practically attach.
Senator Kerry. I totally understand that it does not attach. But it seems to me very difficult, given the order and the intent of the prosecutor, to not recognize that same intent under the cover of a congressional inquiry.
We don't need to go into that further here now. But I am certainly, on the basis of what you have said, inclined to want to seek some kind of response from the U.S. attorney, as well as from the DEA and possibly Customs. I think that we ought to know because this is precisely one of the areas of inquiry that we are concerned about in this committee - you know, what has happened that these kinds of activities are moving out of three Florida airports in the warm light of day without anything happening? And what happens when people have made themselves available and we go for months, and they are not called before grand juries, particularly when there has been as much interest as I think there has been on this. I think this is a legitimate focus. Let me keep going. I want to come back to something.
Mr. Morales. May make something here for the record, Senator?
Senator Kerry. Yes.
Mr. Morales. I am sure that my attorneys contacted the U.S. prosecutor's office long before the June 12, 1986, long before that, about my activities with the CIA and the Contras.
Senator Kerry. OK. We'll come back to that and there is some of that that we may have to pursue in a different session.

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We still haven't got the full chronology here with respect to the guns and weapons, and I want to try to complete that. How many flights did you specifically direct to take weapons and come back with narcotics?
Mr. Morales. All this started, and other things, in -
Senator Kerry. Would you speak clearly into the microphone?
Mr. Morales. Yes - in 983 - oh, 1984. In 1984, I did send right after my meeting with them two planeloads of weapons. One of them was leaving out of my office, and the other one left out of Executive Airport, in the plane that I bought for the Contras.
Senator Kerry. What kind of weapons did you ship in those shipments?
Mr. Morales. I shipped some of the weapons given by them, and others.
Senator Kerry. What were they? What kind, specifically?
Mr. Morales. They were M-16's, machineguns, some C-4, explosives, plastic explosives. I recall one, big, cannon. I don't know what it was, an M-60 or something like that. Ammunitions. The plane was full. Both planes were full.
Senator Kerry. What were these weapons packed in? How were they packed?
Mr. Morales. Very poor packing. I mean, you can see the weapons through the boxes.
Senator Kerry. They were just dumped in boxes?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. No wrapping around the weapons?
Mr. Morales. Some of them, none whatsoever. I did have those weapons in my office and I checked some of them. Some of them I shipped, some of them I did not because they were in poor condition.
Senator Kerry. What was the largest aircraft of weapons that you used, that you shipped out?
Mr. Morales. The Titan. After, in 1984?
Senator Kerry. [Nods affirmatively.]
Mr. Morales. The Titan.
Senator Kerry. How many guns would you ship in that? Did you?
Mr. Morales. I cannot tell, Senator.
Senator Kerry. Were all these guns bought on the open market in Miami?
Mr. Morales. Some of them, yes. Some of them were given to me by the Contras in Miami.
Senator Kerry. Do you know where they came from in Miami?
Mr. Morales. We had the discussion about where the guns come from because I was very upset because of the situation, that I was going to send a plane full of weapons, which did not pay the trip to send the weapons. I was very upset.
I recall calling to Popo Chammoro to advise him that it was very poor conduct, the organization, because I found a lot of weapons rusty, and those weapons were not going to be able to be used by the Contras.
Some of the weapons I bought them myself through different purchases in Miami.

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Senator Kerry. The Titan shipment weighed about how much? Do you remember the weight?
Mr. Morales. About 2,000 pounds. It was heavy, very heavy. It was very heavy.
Senator Kerry. How many shipments of weapons did you personally oversee or take part in loading?
Mr. Morales. The first time that I shipped the weapons was in 1983, July 1983, July to August 1983. The second one was in July 1984, June or July 1984, right after I met with Octaviano and Chammoro.
Right after that, I took some of their pilots and trained them because Marcos Aguado did not want to deal with the situation because he was afraid, being a CIA, as he described he was, to being in the situation, in which he was going to get caught in between because of my reputation in south Florida, as being a drug smuggler. So, therefore, he suggest, Octaviano that we should look for pilots other than the ones used to work for me, very familiar with the runways in Central America. That's exactly what we did.
Senator Kerry. Where did you look for those pilots?
Mr. Morales. They were provided to me by the Contras.
Senator Kerry. Who supplied them?
Mr. Morales. Chammoro, Cesar, and Marcos.
Senator Kerry. Did you train those pilots?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I did. Many of them.
Senator Kerry. Where did you train them?
Mr. Morales. I trained them in the Bahamas. I trained them in Opalaca Airport. Many times.
Senator Kerry. What did that training consist of?
Mr. Morales. Specifically, how to operate a load, I mean a planeload of heavy weapons or drugs; to brief them in the way how to operate planes because there were very sophisticated machines and they were not used to that - some of them they were, some of them not. I train them how to approach the runways in the Bahamas, how to approach the runway loaded, how to take off in the middle of the day loaded, how to transfer the fuel from the regular tanks to auxiliary tanks in order for us to have a long-fuel range.
Senator Kerry. How long did this training period take place?
Mr. Morales. It took place that I recall from 1984 all the way to 198- the late 1985, beginning of 1986.
Senator Kerry. How many pilots were there that you trained?
Mr. Morales. I would say probably eight, nine pilots.
Senator Kerry. And all of these pilots flew for you?
Mr. Morales. Yes, they did.
Senator Kerry. Flew your aircraft?
Mr. Morales. Yes, they did.
Senator Kerry. And they flew the shipments of guns?
Mr. Morales. Yes, they did. Some of them did, some of them did just training. And it was never a time for them to fly the weapons.
Senator Kerry. In executive session, can you give us the names of those pilots?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Do you know where any of them are now?

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Mr. Morales. They are in Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. All of them?
Mr. Morales. As a matter of fact I believe - can you hold on one second? [Pause.]
Senator Kerry. Now, you were going through the shipments. You had a July shipment, et cetera. How many can you complete that question of how many shipments there were?
Mr. Morales. In July, were two of them, with guns down and drugs back from Costa Rica. Consequently, after that, there were quite a few trips from Colombia to the Bahamas. I would say probably eight. The first two, the first couple, maybe two or three, there were, I used the pilot as a copilot for the training. One of the Contra's pilots. And the rest of the trips he did it himself, as a pilot. Late 1985, I flew myself to Costa Rica, and we discussed with them.
Senator Kerry. Who did you deal with in Costa Rica? Did you have to have a contact down there to pick up the drugs?
Mr. Morales. I deal with the Contras. They had this special, they had this ranch, John Hull's ranch, which the plane -
Senator Kerry. All right. Where is this ranch?
Mr. Morales. The ranch is in the south, I mean, the south of Nicaragua, north part of Costa Rica. We flew there -
Senator Kerry. Whose ranch? John Hull?
Mr. Morales. John Hull's ranch.
Senator Kerry. Did you personally fly into that ranch?
Mr. Morales. No, I did not.
Senator Kerry. But your pilots you say did?
Mr. Morales. Yes, they did.
Senator Kerry. In your aircraft?
Mr. Morales. Yes. They did in my own aircraft. Many times.
Senator Kerry. How many times?
Mr. Morales. I recall with the guns and without guns.
Senator Kerry. With guns?
Mr. Morales. And without guns. There were some flights from El Salvador to Costa Rica, in which they land over there without guns. I'm not too sure if they have guns or not at that moment. Don't commit me to that.
Senator Kerry. Did you ever meet John Hull?
Mr. Morales. Formally, I never did. No. I saw him. I saw him. The first time I saw him, it was in my office in 1983.
Senator Kerry. What was that? He was in your office, but you didn't meet him?
Mr. Morales. No. I did not want to.
Senator Kerry. Why didn't you want to?
Mr. Morales. Mr. John Hull is very well known by many people in Colombia and Central America for his activities, and also has the reputation in which he is, I believe being a CIA. And I didn't want no dealings with Government people other than what we already have established through Mr. Chammoro and Mr. Cesar. So, there was no need for me to meet him.
Senator Kerry. Why did he come into your office?
Mr. Morales. He came in 1983 to my office.

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Senator Kerry. Was he alone?
Mr. Morales. No. He was with Marcos Aguado. And also that was the first time that I recall seeing Mr. Gerardo Duran, who is one of the pilots who got arrested the same day in Costa Rica, for the coke shipment.
Senator Kerry. What did he come to your office for? Did you learn?
Mr. Morales. He came to my office with a gentleman by the name of Gustavo.
Senator Kerry. I couldn't understand that. He came to what?
Mr. Morales. He came to my office with a gentleman by the name of Gustavo, a Colombian friend. And that was the first time I saw him. The second time I saw him in Costa Rica, at the hotel. That was late 1984.
Senator Kerry. What hotel?
Mr. Morales. Carriare.
Senator Kerry. What was the occasion of that meeting?
Mr. Morales. I went over there to check the shipment of coke that was supposed to be flown from there to the Bahamas the next week or so.
Senator Kerry. A shipment of coke?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. You went to the hotel to check it?
Mr. Morales. No. We had it in one of the safety houses. Or they had it in one of the safety houses.
Senator Kerry. Who did you meet with at the hotel?
Mr. Morales. I meet with Mr. Carol Prado. I meet with Octaviano Cesar. I meet with several of them.
Senator Kerry. Why was John Hull there? Was he part of that meeting?
Mr. Morales. Well, he was in the poolside. I did not know if he was part of, he was not part of the meeting.
Senator Kerry. He was not part of the meeting?
Mr. Morales. No, he was not. He didn't took part any of my meetings, no. He was just in the pool with some of the pilots.
Senator Kerry. Did your pilots take weapons to John Hull's ranch?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Do you specifically know they landed there?
Mr. Morales. Yes, definitely. No doubt in my mind.
Senator Kerry. Did they come back with anything in their planes?
Mr. Morales. They first time they came with 400-and-some kilos of cocaine, came directly to Florida.
Senator Kerry. I'm sorry. I missed that.
Mr. Morales. The plane came directly from Costa Rica to Florida. That was in July 1984. June or July 1984. That was the first time. The second time was 2 weeks after that. We sent, we flew some weapons out of my office.
Senator Kerry. Excuse me for one minute, please. [Pause.]

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Do you remember when he first came? You say he came to your office at the airport. Had he flown into the airport?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I believe so. As a matter of fact, I know for a fact.
Senator Kerry. You know he flew in?
Mr. Morales. Yes. He was there, and I remember -
Senator Kerry. Do you know what kind of plane he flew in in?
Mr. Morales. November 666-I forgot the letters.
Senator Kerry. Why do you remember those letters?
Mr. Morales. Senator, I used to have Push and Pull November 333, and I used to have also Twin Beech with the numbers of 33333. So, it was called to my attention, this plane being 666. That's why I remember so much. I mean, the Opalaca Airport, it is not that large of an airport.
Senator Kerry. I want to show you a set of documents here if I can. Would you take those down to him [indicating]. [Pause.] Do you recognize those? Do you know what those are? Have you ever seen those before?
Mr. Morales. No, I don't.
Senator Kerry. You've never seen that document?
Mr. Morales. Never in my life.
Senator Kerry. Do you know what it is?
Mr. Morales. It is sort of a Customs or Immigration entry.
Senator Kerry. And it's a Customs form from where?
Mr. Morales. From - from - it was going to Miami, coming from MROC. I really don't know what that stands for.
Senator Kerry. What country, does it say?
Mr. Morales. Are you talking about the first one, Senator?
Senator Kerry. Yes.
Mr. Morales. No. No. This is, the airplane took off from someplace, to San Andres, and from San Andres it was going to go to Miami.
Senator Kerry. OK. San Andres Island; is that correct?
Mr. Morales. Colombia, yes.
Senator Kerry. In Colombia. And this is a Republic of Colombia Civil Aeronautic Filling Form of some kind?
Mr. Morales. Yes, it is.
Senator Kerry. And do you recognize the aircraft number on that?
Mr. Morales. The first one, November 666. The one I just described to you.
Senator Kerry. And the pilots are listed as?
Mr. Morales. Marcos Aguado and John Hull.
Senator Kerry. Is that the same aircraft number?
Mr. Morales. It was the same. It is the same.
Senator Kerry. And you've never seen that form other than that?
Mr. Morales. Never
Senator Kerry. Did you ever fill out that kind of form yourself?
Mr. Morales. Never in my life. No. I never been in San Andres.

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Senator Kerry. OK. You don't know what that is. Let me turn you to the next document. We'll mark that first document, just for identification purposes, as exhibit 1, and this will be exhibit 2. Do you recognize what this is?
Mr. Morales. Excuse me?
Senator Kerry. Do you recognize what this is, the document in front of you, the second document?
Mr. Morales. Yes. It is a gas bill, a gas receipt.
Senator Kerry. Do you see the aircraft tail number there?
Mr. Morales. November 666, Papa Fox.
Senator Kerry. OK. What kind of aircraft is that?
Mr. Morales. That is a Beechcraft T-55.
Senator Kerry. Do you know that airplane?
Mr. Morales. Yes, I know that airplane.
Senator Kerry. How do you know that airplane?
Mr. Morales. I saw that airplane in Opalaca Airport in 1983.
Senator Kerry. Did you ever use that aircraft in drug trafficking.
Mr. Morales. I believe so. We were going to use it once, in 1985, probably.
Senator Kerry. And under whose name is that entry recorded? This is a gasoline document.
Mr. Morales. Yes. It's under Marcos Aguado.
Senator Kerry. All right. Let me turn you to the next document, which we'll mark as exhibit 3. What is that document? What do you recognize that as?
Mr. Morales. This is a gas receipt.
Senator Kerry. Are these used at your airport?
Mr. Morales. Excuse me?
Senator Kerry. Did you ever fill out these kinds of forms?
Mr. Morales. My people did, yes.
Senator Kerry. Are these used at your airport?
Mr. Morales. No. I never see this.
Senator Kerry. But would you use these when you flew into Costa Rica?
Mr. Morales. From my office? Yes.
Senator Kerry. These forms?
Mr. Morales. Yes. Yes, many times.
Senator Kerry. And what's the aircraft number on that receipt?
Mr. Morales. November 9-1-Charlie-
Senator Kerry. Bravo.
Mr. Morales. [continuing]. Bravo, I believe.
Senator Kerry. And the aircraft type?
Mr. Morales. It's a Beechcraft 55 also, from San Andres to -
Senator Kerry. And the date? Do you see the date on that?
Mr. Morales. It's 83-6-25.
Senator Kerry. And the name of record on the flight?
Mr. Morales. John Hull, as pilot, I guess.
Senator Kerry. And that aircraft number, does that aircraft number tell you anything?

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Mr. Morales. Not whatsoever, no. Not that I remember.
Senator Kerry. You don't have any memory of ever seeing that aircraft?
Mr. Morales. No.
Senator Kerry. You never used that aircraft in drug trafficking?
Mr. Morales. Not that I remember.
Senator Kerry. The next document - what do you recognize that to be? I think there are two pages to the next document: the Quality Inn Airport Motel. Is that correct?
Mr. Morales. Yes, sir.
Senator Kerry. Are you familiar with any meetings that took place on June 26 at that hotel with, I guess - do you know who - the two names on that are Mr. John Hull and Gerardo Duran; correct?
Mr. Morales. I know both of them very well.
Senator Kerry. Who are Gerardo Duran?
Mr. Morales. Gerardo Duran is the gentleman in charge of the training of the whole pilots for the Contras. He was the one who took the place from Marcos Aguado to do the flights for me.
Senator Kerry. Did you have dealings with Gerardo Duran?
Mr. Morales. Many of them.
Senator Kerry. What kind of dealings did you have with him?
Mr. Morales. I train him as a pilot.
Senator Kerry. Did he run drugs for you?
Mr. Morales. Yes, he did.
Senator Kerry. He did?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And guns?
Mr. Morales. Yes, he did.
Senator Kerry. And on this particular motel bill, where he is listed with Mr. John Hull, did you have a meeting with them at that hotel?
Mr. Morales. I had several meetings in that hotel - not on that particular day.
Senator Kerry. But not this day. You weren't there?
Mr. Morales. Not this day, no.
Senator Kerry. You would use this hotel, however.
Mr. Morales. With them, yes.
Senator Kerry. Do you recognize the signatures on the second page?
Mr. Morales. You mean the --
Senator Kerry. Either of them. Have you seen those signatures before?
Mr. Morales. Yes, yes.
Senator Kerry. What are those signatures?
Mr. Morales. That's the signature of Gerardo Duran.
Senator Kerry. Do you recognize that as his signature?
Mr. Morales. Yes.
Senator Kerry. All right. Thank you. Now, turning to the next document, that's a Texas Petroleum gas receipt?
Mr. Morales. Yes, it is.
Senator Kerry. What aircraft number does that record?

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