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Mr. Garfinkel. We'd be pleased to provide that to you.
Senator Sanford. Well, thank all of you for being here, and thank you for your cooperation. And I don't think we will have any further need this morning except that you might want to stay and ---
Mr. Garfinkel. I just would like to add in closing that we would be pleased to work closely with this committee both in responding to any additional questions you may have on either project. We will certainly keep the staff advised of developments relative to the Justice Department inquiry, as well as our own foreclosure proceedings.
And thank you again for the opportunity to come up here.
Senator Sanford. Thank you.
I would like to ask Mr. William Crone if he would please come forward now. Mr. Crone, if you would just sit up here behind one of these mikes. Mr. Crone, would you mind raising your right hand and being sworn for the testimony you are about to give?
[Witness sworn.]
Senator Sanford. Thank you very much.
Would you please tell the committee for the record something about your background and something about your connection with this project from the beginning?

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM CRONE

Mr. Crone. OK. First, if I may - I only knowed about this committee last night. I'm here on my own.
Senator Sanford. I understand.
Mr. Crone. I have not been contacted by the committee, the Justice Department, or OPIC. It's just an accident I got here.
Senator Sanford. We are glad to have you. Appreciate your coming.
Mr. Crone. OK. I've been in - well, my family has been in the logging business all its life. I had a sawmill in Indiana, and then I went to Costa Rica and started a sawmill in Costa Rica. And I met Mr. Hull in Costa Rica in 1978. And he seemed, you know, like a very nice person and everything. Got to be good friends. We was very good friends up until the day we signed this loan. From that day forward we have had problems.
Senator Sanford. Well, go ahead and explain those problems, explain how the transaction was put together, explain where you originally made contact with OPIC.
Mr. Crone. OK. We originally had a loan to start with. We made an application for $500,000. That was to put up the wood project and buy a sawmill in Guanacoste, Costa Rica, which had all the machinery - more machinery than they have now at this time. And at that time - but they rejected the loan - OPIC. So, I had no more to - you know, I didn't think any more about it.
Mr. Hull and Mr. Arroyo - they kept trying to get money out of them. So, finally on this day of the signing of the loan, they say, "We finally got this loan through. Let's go down and sign the loan." OK, I went down. And we were supposed to put up our own farm for security. We got there. Mr. Hull had put up this other person's farm as security without his even knowledge of it. He had

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10-percent ownership in the farm, and had power of attorney in Costa Rica. So, we signed the loan that day. And from that day on, they never talked to me any more about it.
Senator Sanford. Did you put up your farm as security?
Mr. Crone. No. I was going to.
Senator Sanford. Just lucky.
Mr. Crone. Right. Well, maybe, maybe not. I don't know yet.
So, he put up this other person's farm. From that day on, I said, "Mr. Hull, this is not right. This is not our farm." And he said, "Oh, no, no. I have some squatter problems on that. Let's use that and everything." But it's taking so long with this loan and everything, I thought it was going to be a good deal. So, we went ahead and I signed the loan that day.
And then from then on, him and Mr. Arroyo - they did not talk to me any more. They did not want me in the plant or anything, and I had more experience than any of them in this whole business because I had a background in the woodworking business, and they had nothing.
Then Rudy Stiehler was a good friend of mine. He is the one that has brought all the OPIC in Washington and everything, this, that, and the other. He kept filling me in what was going on. And one of the first things Mr. Hull did was took out the money to pay himself for equipment that was supposed to be his part of the loan, his part in the decision. And from then I just kind of watched it.
And about a year ago, Diana Chavarria told me that they had a problem with the other farm. In the meantime, I knowed they'd sold this other one. And they was trying to get the farm in as security on this loan.
So, therefore, I just set back and waited until about approximately 2 weeks ago the brother of Diana Chavarria told me that they had finally got OPIC - they got farms in that they was going to repossess on these two farms.
So, I mean, if you want to ask me questions, maybe I can ---
Senator Sanford. Let me interrupt just a second. If you'll look at that clock in the back, that means we're having a vote on the floor, and I'm going to have the chief counsel continue this line of questioning until Senator Kerry returns or I return. It will all be in the record, and I apologize for having to step out. But we could either do that or take a recess. Given that the passage of time, I think it would be better if we went ahead.
Mr. Crone. OK.
Mr. Blum. Thank you, Senator.
Did you understand when this loan was made that you were required to contribute your going sawmill business as the capital contribution to the new firm?
Mr. Crone. No. At that time, no, because that's the reason Mr. Hull had 60 percent of the deal. He was supposed to be contributing everything that was going to be except for our farms that we were going to put up.
Mr. Blum. In other words - you're saying here you never understood that you had to put up some capital to qualify for this loan. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. Nothing more than the farms; no.
Mr. Blum. And the farms that were put up were not your farms.

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Mr. Crone. Yes. The farm that I was going to put up, yes, was mine.
Mr. Blum. But in the end you never put that farm up.
Mr. Crone. No.
Mr. Blum. Now, what exactly was to be in this business? What was the equipment that was going to be used for the business?
Mr. Crone. Well, they were supposed to go to the States and buy new equipment for this business.
And also, now Mr. Hull had 60 percent the day of the signing supposedly. They give me 15 percent. Mr. Arroyo took 25 percent. But during the time until Mr. Clegg come down, they had never given me anything.
Mr. Blum. In other words, you didn't have shares in this corporation until Mr. Clegg came down. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. Right. And then after he came down, they put me as vice president and 40-percent owner, which I didn't sign any papers to receive or anything.
Mr. Blum. Was the equipment for this factory ever purchased?
Mr. Crone. Yes, but it was junk. They bought used equipment in the States. They did not buy any new equipment like their project said they should have and everything.
Mr. Blum. Did Mr. Hull sell any equipment to the company?
Mr. Crone. Yes. Mr. Hull had a truck, his personal - that was in one of his other companies that he sold to this company. And then afterward he sold this truck for Maderas Tropicales to a individual in Costa Rica with only a postdated check. And then the gentleman sold the truck later, and Mr. Hull could not recuperate the money because the check was no good.
Mr. Blum. Now, what happened in your understanding to the proceeds of the loan? We heard earlier that it was deposited in an Indiana bank account. Do you know what became of it after that Indiana bank account?
Mr. Crone. No. The only thing I know is just what Mr. Stiehler told me that they deposited all the money in a bank account in Indiana. And then from there they started writing checks and cashed them in Costa Rica or wherever - even in Indiana. They sent some to Mr. Hull's account in Indiana and this, that and the other.
Mr. Blum. So, the checks were written to cash.
Do you know if this was ever put into operating a business in Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. Yes. But the business did ship two loads.
Mr. Blum. A total to two loads of wheelbarrow handles. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Mr. Blum. Now, isn't it correct that one of those loads was defective?
Mr. Crone. Yes. Maybe both loads. I'm not sure.
Mr. Blum. And what happened to that defective load of wheelbarrow handles?
Mr. Crone. I have no idea.
Mr. Blum. Did you ever hear Mr. Stiehler say that it was to be reprocessed?
Mr. Crone. Well, there was two other loads that he bought from somewhere else. I don't know which loads are which.

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Mr. Blum. I see. He bought wheelbarrow handles from another company completely?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Mr. Blum. And he shipped them to the United States?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Mr. Blum. And one of those leads, one of those four loads then had to be reprocessed. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. No. There was more than two loads that had to be reprocessed.
Mr. Blum. I see.
Mr. Crone. He had bought more than - maybe two or three from this other company and maybe two loads from Maderas Tropicales.
Mr. Blum. And what was the problem with these handles?
Mr. Crone. The holes were not drilled in the right places. They did not have the right quantity of varnish on them. Their dryness was not - they were not kilned right, as they testified.
Mr. Blum. So, you never saw any of the proceeds of the $375,000. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. No, sir. That's not correct. I did receive $10,000 for lumber that my company Maderas Amoya sold to Maderas Tropicales. But we sold them more lumber. They only paid us $10,000. We had close to 15,000 to 20,000 dollars' worth of wood.
Mr. Blum. So, you in effect sold 15,000 dollars' worth of wood to Maderas Tripicales for which you were paid $10,000. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Mr. Blum. And otherwise you've received no money from Maderas Tropicales.
Mr. Crone. No, none whatsoever. Not for any labor I've done or anything.
Mr. Blum. And this is even though you appear on the loan documents as a one-third owner. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. I'm not sure what the loan documents say. I never did receive a copy of that either. But I was supposed to be a 15-percent owner.
Mr. Blum. You were supposed to be a 15-percent owner. You've never seen the loan documents?
Mr. Crone. No.
Mr. Blum. Did you ever see the loan application materials?
Mr. Crone. The only thing I did, I made up - they requested from me my financial statement and a letter of experience that I gave to Mr. Hull. At that time we were very good friends, and I had no reason to believe that he was going to do anything like this.
Mr. Blum. And are you now surprised to find yourself personally liable on this loan?
Mr. Crone. No. In the past 2 years I've been very nervous about this loan, about being liable.
Mr. Blum. When did you first discover that you might potentially be liable on the loan?
Mr. Crone. Well, approximately a year ago when this one farm that he sold that was supposed to be security, and then they were trying to get this other farm back in. So, I was more or less like OPIC. I was just setting here waiting to make sure we get these

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two farms in so maybe OPIC would take these farms and be satisfied and not come back for recourse against me.
Mr. Blum. Now, let me try to understand what you've just said. You're saying that there was a farm that was given as security. But then he sold that farm. And to sell the farm, he had to get rid of the mortgage that was on it. Is that what you're saying?
Mr. Crone. No. He sold the farm because the mortgage had never been registered properly in Costa Rica.
Mr. Blum. Oh, I see. In other words, OPIC had security on a farm, but the mortgage hadn't been registered.
Mr. Crone. Right.
Mr. Blum. But he sold that farm, and then he went to OPIC and said we'll get another farm placed in. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes. He has two farms. And these two farms did not have the paperwork correct in his name or in his company name. So, it took more than a year's time to get this processed. And so, I was more or less like OPIC, just setting here waiting to see if he's going to get something back in her other than just jump in and say, "OK, no."
Mr. Blum. Are those farms to your knowledge worth $375,000?
Mr. Crone. If it's the two farms I think they are, no way.
Mr. Blum. What do you think they're worth?
Mr. Crone. Maybe $100,000.
Mr. Blum. Is there timber on them that can be cut profitably?
Mr. Crone. OK, one of them the timber has been cut off of. The other one, he was trying to get a permit to cut the timber off of it a year ago. And I told Diana Chavarria that he was trying to cut this timber off of this farm at this time - trying the same farm that he was going to put in as security. Without the timber, this farm has no value whatsoever.
Mr. Blum. What do you think happened to the $375,000?
Mr. Crone. I think half of it at least was just bad management. The other I don't k now.
Mr. Blum. But you never saw it.
Mr. Crone. Pardon?
Mr. Blum. You never saw it.
Mr. Crone. No, I never saw it. I know they used part of it to pay the life insurance, part of it to pay the first payment. The rest of it - I have no idea whatsoever they done with it.
Mr. Blum. Now, there was third partner in this; wasn't there? There was a Costa Rican who was to be a plant manager. Who was he?
Mr. Crone. Yes. He was Alvaro Arroyo and which that was always been - me and him never could get along.
Mr. Blum. Did he receive any of the proceeds of the loan? Did he receive any money?
Mr. Crone. Yes. It's my understanding that John Hull would write a check on the Indiana bank account to a gentleman in Costa Rica, changing into colones, give the colones to Mr. Alvaro and Alvaro would - Arroyo would deposit it in his personal account, and then use that to buy things with for the company or buy whatever, operating capital, whatever.
Mr. Blum. Is it clear that the money was not used for the assets of Maderas Tropicales, but went into his personal account and was

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then used for general purposes? Are you reasonably certain that occurred?
Mr. Crone. Please repeat that, please.
Mr. Blum. Are you sure that that money went into his personal account?
Mr. Crone. No, I'm not positive. It's just hearsay. But Maderas Tropicales never had an account of their own at this time either.
Mr. Blum. Is there a possibility of a sawmill business making wheelbarrow handles being successful in Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. Yes. At that time there was a very good chance of it - of being a very good going business.
Mr. Blum. But this business was not successful.
Mr. Crone. No, because it was never set up. Never had the equipment - the money sat in the bank account in Indiana for 6 months - a lot of it - or maybe more when it should have all been invested the very same day that the proceeds.
Mr. Blum. Did Mr. Hull ever say to you that he was earning interest on that money?
Mr. Crone. Yes. He said he had it in a bank account earning 8 percent. And I said, "Well, you're dumb. You're paying 13 on the 8." [Laughter.]
Mr. Blum. Now, were you aware that Mr. Hull was at the time active in aiding the Contras?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Mr. Blum. Was he using his ranch at that time or his various properties to support Contra operations in northern Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. Well, I'm not saying exactly he used his ranches. But he was communicating very well with these people.
Mr. Blum. Do you think any of this money went to help the Contras?
Mr. Crone. No. I don't think any of this money really went to help the Contras. Anything that went to improve his own property. [Laughter.]
Senator Kerry [presiding]. When did you first meet Mr. Hull?
Mr. Crone. In Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. What year?
Mr. Crone. In 1978.
Senator Kerry. And when did you - what were the circumstances of your meeting him?
Mr. Crone. OK. In 1977 he had a partner, a Costa Rican partner, that had a big farm that got killed in an airplane. He was married to a American citizen. His wife did not want it all tied up in Costa Rican court.
Senator Kerry. Can you speak more clearly into - pull the microphone a little closer and just go a little slower there.
Mr. Crone. So, my brother knowed this gentleman that knowed Mr. Hull. So, he went to Costa Rica, and he bought the interest in this farm for me and my brother - for myself and I.
So, therefore, the following year I went down to look at the farm, and I met Mr. Hull at that time. And I more or less - I liked the country because we had our sawmill business in Indiana. It was a up and going business, good and I was getting bored. So, I'd like something else to do. So, I decided to go to Costa Rica.

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Senator Kerry. Did you go into business with Mr. Hull at that time?
Mr. Crone. No. I had already - really I had went in business with him a year before that because my brother had bought that farm.
Senator Kerry. And when you went to Costa Rica to work - were you actually working the farm?
Mr. Crone. Yes. I went to Costa Rica, and we went up to the farm and worked on the - well, the first time - the first several years I was only there 2 weeks at a time. But I did go to the farm and more or less worked; yes.
Senator Kerry. And you were working - is this the same farm you were working right through 1982-83 when the loan application was made?
Mr. Crone. No. This was a different farm altogether. In 1979, in the following year, me and a gentleman from Indiana - we bought another farm together. And this farm was going to be in the loan application.
Senator Kerry. Now, in 1982 and 1983 when the loan application - when you made that and you decided to bring these - consolidate these three companies - farms, were you still close to John Hull at that time?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Did you - whose idea was it to put this combine together?
Mr. Crone. Maybe the two of us, John Hull and I.
Senator Kerry. And what were the percentages that you decided to divide up?
Mr. Crone. At that time - well, we never really talked about percentages, but I figured, well, we'd at least have, you know, one-third each.
Senator Kerry. Did you ---
Mr. Crone [continuing]. Arroyo because Mr. Arroyo had nothing really. He had no assets whatsoever.
Senator Kerry. Are the listings - you were listed as one of the partners in the application.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Did you help fill out any of those forms for that application?
Mr. Crone. No, sir.
Senator Kerry. Did you provide any information that Mr. Hull used to show what your assets were?
Mr. Crone. Yes. I did give him a financial statement and a letter of my experience. But I'm not positive whether that was for the second application or the first one, and they just used that in the second application.
Senator Kerry. They didn't use it in the first.
Mr. Crone. Yes. They used it in the first, but it may be the same thing that they used in the second.
Senator Kerry. And was that accurate?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Now, during that period of time, did you visit Mr. Hull's farm a great deal?
Mr. Crone. Yes. I'm not sure what time.

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Senator Kerry. In 1983, 1984?
Mr. Crone. Yes, but I mean in that time - in 1981 I lived on Mr. Hull's farm for 6 months. And then in 1982, 1983, somewhere along in there, he had an office in Ciudad Quesada with an extra room. So, I stayed there.
Senator Kerry. Did you visit his farm on through 1984?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Did you ever land at his airstrip?
Mr. Crone. Yes, several times. I had my own plane. As a matter of fact, I kept my plane there several times.
Senator Kerry. So, you were well aware of the activities going on at the Hull airstrip. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. It is no secret to you at all that supplies were coming in there and soldiers were flying in and out. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. No, there was no supplies or no soldiers coming into that airstrip.
Senator Kerry. You never saw any.
Mr. Crone. Not to that airstrip of his; no.
Senator Kerry. Which airstrip?
Mr. Crone. Which airstrip. There was another airstrip; yes.
Senator Kerry. Which one?
Mr. Crone. Well, I would like to not say because it might implicate me.
Senator Kerry. Well, was it on your farm?
Mr. Crone. Well, possibly. [Laughter.]
Mr. Crone. I'm not sure it's my farm now because Mr. Hull is trying to take that away from me - my interest.
Senator Kerry. What year was this? Do you want to tell us what year this was?
Mr. Crone. OK. This was before 1983. I beg your pardon. This was - let me check here. The last time I had any dealings about anything and that was in probably May or July 1983.
Senator Kerry. In 1983.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And at that time you knew very well of Mr. Hull's efforts to try to provide assistance to the Contras; didn't you?
Mr. Crone. Yes, at that time, yes.
Senator Kerry. And you knew that weapons and explosives were among those things that were being transported for the Contras. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And those weapons and explosives were coming into the airstrips - yours. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Well, no, it's not mine. It's the company's.
Senator Kerry. The company's.
Mr. Crone. A company.
Senator Kerry. A company. What was the name of the company?
Mr. Crone. La Conya.
Senator Kerry. La Conya. Now, who were the principles of the company, La Conya?

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Mr. Crone. OK. John Hull was a 30-percent owner.
Senator Kerry. John?
Mr. Crone. And the manager.
Senator Kerry. Say that again. I couldn't hear you.
Mr. Crone. John Hull was the ---
Senator Kerry. Thirty-percent owner of the company.
Mr. Crone. Thirty-percent owner of the company, and he was the manager of the company.
Senator Kerry. And you also know of weapons or explosives being stored at or near the sawmill that was owned by Mr. Hull. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. So, the sawmill was, in fact, a location for supplies of those weapons for the Contras.
Mr. Crone. No. You said "at or near". It was not at the sawmill.
Senator Kerry. Near the sawmill.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. That's correct. I said "near."
Do you want to describe specifically where?
Mr. Crone. Well, it was another farm close; yes.
Senator Kerry. Can you describe that farm?
Mr. Crone. Well, it was in Life magazine at one time.
Senator Kerry. Well, do you want to be more specific since the rest of ---
[Laughter.]
Senator Kerry. I missed that copy of Life.
Mr. Crone. It was where Bruce Jones lived.
Senator Kerry. Where?
Mr. Crone. Bruce Jones lived.
Senator Kerry. Bruce Jones lived, OK.
And now, did you in the course of that time also learn of individuals who were trafficking in narcotics?
Mr. Crone. No. I was informed by some people from the Embassy to stay away from certain people, that they had been tagged as trafficking in narcotics.
Senator Kerry. Well, that's what I'm saying. You became aware of the fact that people were trafficking in narcotics. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes, people that were trying to get into the movement.
Senator Kerry. That's correct.
And that there was talk at that time of narcotics flowing out of some of these airstrips. Correct?
Mr. Crone. No, not at that time. There was no talk about that or anything.
Senator Kerry. At what time was there?
Mr. Crone. That was later on.
Senator Kerry. OK, what time?
Mr. Crone. Maybe in 1985.
Senator Kerry. But in 1985 you did learn of that. Correct?
Mr. Crone. No. I just heard about it.
Senator Kerry. Do you want to tell us what you heard?
Mr. Crone. Well, I just heard that they was wanting to investigate John Hull for because he might have implications of using this. And this airstrip is very possibly because it is very remote.

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Senator Kerry. Where did you hear that?
Mr. Crone. Just - well, just from Costa Rican people and different people. I'm not positive from where. I mean, just ---
Senator Kerry. Did you hear it from multiple sources?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Were any of those people people you knew well?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Could you describe specifically to me some of those people?
Mr. Crone. Well, some of those people were officials of the Costa Rican Government.
Senator Kerry. At what level?
Mr. Crone. I couldn't say exactly. Well, more or less Congress level.
Senator Kerry. What level?
Mr. Crone. Congress level possibly.
Senator Kerry. Congress level. Well, that's pretty low. I'll agree. [Laughter.]
Mr. Crone. They only have a senate down there, so maybe at the senate level. [Laughter.]
Senator Kerry. We should get you in front of more committees here. [Laughter.]
Now, did you have any discussions with any members of the - equivalent of the DEA in Costa Rica itself?
Mr. Crone. No, not exactly. I'm not sure. Not exactly the DEA. I had a good friend that supposedly he is a very good - maybe an agent of theirs or what have you or the local guard also. So, he more or less kept me informed also.
Senator Kerry. Now, how often did you wind up meeting with or working with Rob Owen?
Mr. Crone. OK, Rob Owen? I only worked with him one time, the first time he came to Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. When was that?
Mr. Crone. That was in - well, it would have been approximately this time in July 1983. After that time, maybe September.
Senator Kerry. How did you happen to meet him?
Mr. Crone. We met him here in this building in Senator - I don't remember ---
Senator Kerry. Where was that?
Mr. Crone. Pardon?
Senator Kerry. You met Rob Owen here in this building.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Do you recall where?
Mr. Crone. In his office when he was working for the - he was an assistant or an aide.
Senator Kerry. OK. That was in 1983 when he was working for Senator Quayle.
Mr. Crone. Yes, in July 1983, July 21, 1983.
Senator Kerry. How did that happen to come about?
Mr. Crone. Well, I'm getting into more now here than I thought I was going to talk about ---
[Laughter.]
Mr. Crone [continuing]. Because I may have repercussions in Costa Rica, the thing is.

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Really, I'll just go ahead. Me and one of the Contra commandants came to the United States in that time because we were very upset with Pastora. He was working more or less like a Communist. And we wanted to come to Washington and talk to people to inform them what was going on. And then we got here. And everybody was more or less in favor of Pastora, so we were afraid to speak up at that time.
Senator Kerry. And how did you happen to meet Rob Owen? You just met him there in the office?
Mr. Crone. Yes. It just happened - I'm from Indiana, so we went to meet our Indiana representative.
Senator Kerry. Now, when was the next time you met Rob Owen?
Mr. Crone. In Costa Rica. I picked him up at the airport in Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. How did you know he was coming?
Mr. Crone. I paid half his ticket.
Senator Kerry. Why?
Mr. Crone. Well, he was wanting to get more information. He seemed like the only person here that was really interested in what was going on there. So, he came down to get more information about Pastora and what he was doing and everything.
Senator Kerry. Who was he working for at that time?
Mr. Crone. He was still an aide I believe. I'm not sure. I don't know who he was working for.
Senator Kerry. Did you personally think that Pastora was a Communist?
Mr. Crone. Do I have to answer that?
Senator Kerry. Yes, sure.
Mr. Crone. I think possibly, yes.
Senator Kerry. Possibly.
Now, when Rob Owen returned to Costa Rica, did he come back as a member still of the Senator's staff?
Mr. Crone. I have no idea. I have no idea when he was no longer a member.
Senator Kerry. But you paid for half his ticket.
Mr. Crone. Yes, the first time he came.
Senator Kerry. Who contacted you to ask you to do that?
Mr. Crone. Mr. Hull.
Senator Kerry. Mr. Hull asked you to pay for half of Rob Owen's ticket.
Mr. Crone. Yes, and he paid for the other half.
Senator Kerry. And did he say why?
Mr. Crone. Well, he thought we would get - I mean, he could learn something and maybe get something changed.
Senator Kerry. Did Rob Owen mention Oliver North's name at that time?
Mr. Crone. I met Oliver North here in Washington at the same time I met Rob Owen.
Senator Kerry. At the same time Rob Owen was working in the Senate.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Where did you meet Oliver North?
Mr. Crone. In his office.

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Senator Kerry. At the White House at the West Wing?
Mr. Crone. Well, whatever - it's not exactly in the White House. It was just in that building.
Senator Kerry. The building next door to the White House?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Now, who took you down there?
Mr. Crone. I don't remember.
Senator Kerry. How did you come to meet Oliver North?
Mr. Crone. I don't know. We met several people here, and somebody wanted us to talk to him.
Senator Kerry. Somebody here. Do you recall who it was?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. You have no recollection who it was?
Mr. Crone. No, not for sure. It could have been Rob himself, or it could have been someone else. We met with several people when we were here. We was only here 2 days and we met with several different people.
Senator Kerry. What was the subject of that meeting?
Mr. Crone. The biggest subject reason was everyone was interested because this gentleman that was with me used to be a commandant of Pastora's. He had been a Sandinista also and defected. And so, everybody was wanting to talk to him.
Senator Kerry. Who was that?
Mr. Crone. Luis Rigas.
Senator Kerry. Did you agree to do anything for Oliver North at that meeting?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. When was the next time you - and so, you paid for Rob Owen's journey down to Costa Rica. You picked him up at the airport. And where did you take him?
Mr. Crone. I took him to my apartment.
Senator Kerry. In San Jose or where?
Mr. Crone. Yes, in San Jose.
Senator Kerry. And how long were you with Mr. Owen? The course of the next few days.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And what did you in the course of those days?
Mr. Crone. I wasn't with him all the time, but some - part of the time we met with some of the rebel leaders at that time and everything.
Senator Kerry. Did you go up into the farms?
Mr. Crone. I don't remember if we went up. I think maybe we did go to Mr. Hull's farm; yes.
Senator Kerry. What was the purpose of meeting with these leaders?
Mr. Crone. He was wanting to get more information about Pastora to see if, you know, he really was a Communist or what have you, or why we were helping him and this, that, and the other.
Senator Kerry. Do you recall who you met with.
Mr. Crone. I know we met with - we might have met with Pastora himself. I don't remember for sure. I think maybe possibly we did, and with Robello, and I'm not sure who else.
Senator Kerry. What other Contra commandants did you meet with?

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Mr. Crone. That's - the only ones I know was Robello and Pastora and this Luis Rigas. We did meet with several that was non-military also.
Senator Kerry. Did you meet with Rob Owen again after that in Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. I'm not positive. Possibly yes, possibly no. Right after that ---
Senator Kerry. Well, wasn't he coordinating a certain amount of the flow of supplies that were coming through at that time.
Mr. Crone. I don't know. I may have met with him one more time after that.
Senator Kerry. Well, you had planes coming in and out of your strip. Correct?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. In 1983?
Mr. Crone. There was no planes landing on our airstrip in 1983.
Senator Kerry. In 1984?
Mr. Crone. In 1984 I'm not sure. I haven't been on that farm since then.
Senator Kerry. Well, you said earlier that there were supplies coming in at your strip.
Mr. Crone. Yes, but I did not say the planes landed.
Senator Kerry. You didn't what?
Mr. Crone. I didn't say any planes landed or anything there. [Laughter.] I said supplies were coming in.
Senator Kerry. So, you picked them up after they dropped by parachute. Correct? They came in on a drop, and they used the field. Is that accurate?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And who coordinated that? Rob Owen?
Mr. Crone. No, Rob Owen had nothing to do with that at that time. This was before I ever met Rob Owen.
Senator Kerry. Was anybody paying you at that point for what you were doing?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. Was John Hull paying you?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. For what period of time did that continue to your knowledge?
Mr. Crone. It did not continue any more after May 1983.
Senator Kerry. And did you have any ---
Mr. Crone. That I was involved in.
Senator Kerry. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Crone. That I was involved in.
Senator Kerry. Did you have any subsequent meetings with Rob Owen?
Mr. Crone. No. After probably the second time he came to Costa Rica, from then on I did not have anything to ---
Senator Kerry. Did you have any subsequent meetings with Oliver North?
Mr. Crone. No. I only met him one time in his office. That was all.

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Senator Kerry. Now, did you work with Felipe Vidal?
Mr. Crone. Who?
Senator Kerry. Felipe Vidal.
Mr. Crone. Felipe?
Senator Kerry. Vidal.
Mr. Crone. Vidal. I'm not ---
Senator Kerry. OK.
Mr. Crone. I've heard of two or three Felipe's name, but I don't know what their last names.
Senator Kerry. How about Rene Corbo?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Did you work with him?
Mr. Crone. I did not work with him. I know him.
Senator Kerry. What do you know of Rene Corbo?
Mr. Crone. OK. I met him the first time in Florida.
Senator Kerry. When did you meet him in Florida?
Mr. Crone. I'm not positive. I don't know when it was.
Senator Kerry. In what capacity did you meet him?
Mr. Crone. Another gentleman took us to a camp, a training camp, they had there.
Senator Kerry. In Florida.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. What year was this?
Mr. Crone. Pardon?
Senator Kerry. What year?
Mr. Crone. I have no idea.
Senator Kerry. What kind of training camp?
Mr. Crone. They were just training just more or less like an army training camp.
Senator Kerry. And who was training?
Mr. Crone. Just - I don't know. Just several individuals. Maybe 20 or 30 people there.
Senator Kerry. Where was this? Near Miami?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Do you remember where specifically?
Mr. Crone. I know it's on Alligator Alley somewhere.
Senator Kerry. What?
Mr. Crone. On Alligator Alley somewhere.
Senator Kerry. And how did you happen to come to be there?
Mr. Crone. This other gentleman came down, and they was wanting to bring the people into Costa Rica with their arms and everything. So, since I knowed a lot of Costa Rican airstrips, he was wanting me to tell him where to land.
Senator Kerry. Which fellow was that?
Mr. Crone. Which fellow? I don't remember his name right now. He runs a travel service in Miami.
Senator Kerry. How about Horacio Pereira?
Mr. Crone. Pardon?
Senator Kerry. Horacio Pereira.
Mr. Crone. No, that doesn't ring a bell. It could be he's using another name or something.
Senator Kerry. Huachan Gonzalez?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. Did you ever do anything with Moises Nunez?

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Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. Now, were the people who were training at this place in Florida - were they Contras or were they Americans?
Mr. Crone. No, they was Americans.
Senator Kerry. They were Americans.
Mr. Crone. Well ---
Senator Kerry. What?
Mr. Crone. I don't know who they were exactly.
Senator Kerry. Did they speak English?
Mr. Crone. Yes, some of them spoke English. Some of them spoke Spanish.
Senator Kerry. Were they Caucasian?
Mr. Crone. They was a little bit of mix of everything.
Senator Kerry. What were you doing there?
Mr. Crone. This gentleman from the travel agency just wanted to show me their camp, see what they was doing. And he was wanting to send his people down to help train the people down there.
Senator Kerry. Who was this gentleman?
Mr. Crone. I don't know his - he was a - had a travel agency in Miami. I don't remember his name.
Senator Kerry. How did you happen to come to him?
Mr. Crone. He found me.
Senator Kerry. Where did he find you?
Mr. Crone. In Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. And you don't remember his name. He found you in Costa Rica. You went to his travel agency. You spent a day with him and you have no recollection of his name?
Mr. Crone. No, not right offhand.
Senator Kerry. Do you remember his place of business?
Mr. Crone. No. It was in northern Miami somewhere - northern Miami or ---
Senator Kerry. How did you get there?
Mr. Crone. In his vehicle.
Senator Kerry. He picked you up at the airport?
Mr. Crone. No. He picked me up at a bar.
Senator Kerry. How did you know where to meet him?
Mr. Crone. He told me where to meet him when he was in Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. And you knew what he looked like when you went into the bar?
Mr. Crone. Pardon?
Senator Kerry. You knew what he looked like?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. What did you say? Hello, blank, or hi, Don, or hi, Don, or hi, Jim? I mean, you must remember his name.
Mr. Crone. No, no, not really.
Senator Kerry. Not really or?
Mr. Crone. No, because a lot of those people why used to not us their own names or anything.
Senator Kerry. Well, what was the name that he gave you?
Mr. Crone. I don't remember any name that he gave me.
Senator Kerry. No recollection of his name.
Mr. Crone. Not exactly. It seemed to me like it was a Cuban name. It could have been possibly a Cuban name.

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Senator Kerry. How many times have you seen him?
Mr. Crone. Possibly - I seen him once in Costa Rica, once in Miami, and I think that was all.
Senator Kerry. But he found you in Costa Rica.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Brought you up. Did he pay for your trip?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. You paid for it yourself.
Mr. Crone. No. It just happened I was coming to the States on business at that time anyway.
Senator Kerry. What did you do after you had been out to see this place where people were training?
Mr. Crone. Then I went on to Tampa.
Senator Kerry. Without him.
Mr. Crone. Yes, without them.
Senator Kerry. And what did you do in Tampa?
Mr. Crone. I had - one of the business partners - I mean, one of the partners of one of Costa Rican farms was there.
Senator Kerry. Now, with respect to the loan and John Hull, have you taken any recourse with respect to your current position?
Mr. Crone. No, because I was waiting all along to see if they got these farms back in to have protection more.
Senator Kerry. Just 1 minute.
[Pause.]
Senator Kerry. Mr. Crone, let me just go back on this a little bit. The reason I'm asking these questions - I know that this is outside of what you expected to talk today. But on the other hand, it is very much a part of what this committee is involved in right now and has been working on for some period of time. So, it does dovetail into other matters of concern.
Let me just ask you. And I appreciate your candor, and you have been very forthcoming. And I want to just pursue this a little further.
When you went to this so-called military training camp in Miami - I want to be more precise. This was in 1983?
Mr. Crone. Pardon?
Senator Kerry. This was in 1983?
Mr. Crone. I'm not positive. It was before July 1983; yes. And I'm not sure it was in 1982 or 1983.
Senator Kerry. Somewhere in that vicinity.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And you saw maybe 30 people in military training. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Now, at that time that person was arranging and trying to arrange for the delivery of weapons down to Costa Rica. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Crone. No. He was trying to arrange the delivery of his troops - I mean, these people that were training there in order to help train the Contras down there.
Senator Kerry. But they were training with weapons. Right? They carried weapons?
Mr. Crone. Yes.

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Senator Kerry. And they were bringing weapons into the country in order to supply. They were dropping those weapons at the airstrips. Correct?
Mr. Crone. I have no idea who dropped those weapons.
Senator Kerry. You don't know who dropped them, but you know they were being dropped.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Wasn't there a discussion at this Miami location about further transfer of supplies down to your area in northern Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. Yes, there was. Well, they wanted to get these troops in there.
Senator Kerry. That's precisely what you were discussing while you were there. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes. They had a DC-3 they was wanting to get into Costa Rica without knowledge of the local people.
Senator Kerry. Without knowledge of local authorities in Florida.
Mr. Crone. No. Local authorities in Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. Do you know whether or not local authorities in Florida knew of this?
Mr. Crone. I have no idea but it was very close to a highway.
Senator Kerry. Do you know who ran this training camp?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. You have no idea?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. Did you meet a person by the name of Rene Corbo there?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. He was there?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. OK. And wasn't Rene Corbo the person who was in fact in charge there?
Mr. Crone. It seemed like there were two or three in charge there. He was acting like he was one of them in charge.
Senator Kerry. Rene Corba was certainly one of those who was in charge.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And you had discussions with Rene Corbo there. Correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes. We had lunch their in our messhall.
Senator Kerry. And at lunch you talked about getting supplies into Costa Rica. Correct?
Mr. Crone. No, not really. We never did actually talk about there in that camp or anything, about bringing supplies. He just showed me what they were training, this, that, and the other.
Senator Kerry. But you talked specifically about the DC-3 that they had.
Mr. Crone. Yes, but not there at that camp. That was later with the gentleman at the travel service.
Senator Kerry. And you talked about that back in Miami?
Mr. Crone. We talked about this before we even got to the camp. Maybe even ---

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Senator Kerry. So, the discussion about getting the supplies took place before
you even got to the camp.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. The camp, however, was part of their network of what was
providing the supplies.. Is that correct?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. OK. And the discussion about the dropping of the supplies took
Place in Miami in the morning. Correct?
Mr. Crone. No. This was supposed to be a direct - they were going to land in
Costa Rica. They were not going to drop.
Senator Kerry. Excuse me?
Mr. Crone. This was supposed to be a landing.
Senator Kerry. A landing. All right. Did they discuss specifically where they
would land.
Mr. Crone. No. They discussed several possibilities.
Senator Kerry. And you farm was one of the possibilities.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. And another one was John Hull's?
Mr. Crone. No.
Senator Kerry. What was the other one?
Mr. Crone. My farm and John Hull's farm was the same on at that time, the one
I'm referring to there.
Senator Kerry. OK. That's the one in which he had the 30-percent ownership under Laconia.
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. All right. What other locations did you discuss for the landing?
Mr. Crone. There were distant locations. Quanticosti and over toward Limon. Really the whole Costa Rica.
Senator Kerry. Was there discussion about landing at Monaco?
Mr. Crone. Yes. But as far as I know, this airplane never did come in to land there. I mean, it didn't even land in Costa Rica. After that I was told to stay away from these people, so I don't know anything more about it.
Senator Kerry. Who told you to stay away from these people?
Mr. Crone. Someone was coordinating some of the supply drops.
Senator Kerry. Who was that?
Mr. Crone. I don't know. They called him Thomas.
Senator Kerry. In Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. He was in Costa Rica?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Was he an operative of the Embassy?
Mr. Crone. I have no idea.
Senator Kerry. Was he American?
Mr. Crone. Yes.
Senator Kerry. Did you have many dealings with this Thomas?
Mr. Crone. No, not many dealings. Mainly I had my own airplane there and I'd just fly people around.
Senator Kerry. Was he someone that you flew around?
Mr. Crone. No. I don't remember ever flying him; no.
Senator Kerry. Let me at this point, Mr. Crone - where are you currently residing?
Mr. Crone. In Costa Rica.

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Senator Kerry. And how did you happen to be here in this moment in time?
Mr. Crone. It was just an accident. Well really, I was talking to Ms. Diana Chavarria's brother about 2 weeks ago and he informed me that OPIC was going to take these two farms of John Hull's. So, I came here to talk to OPIC to see if they were going to be satisfied with just those two farms or if they were going to come for repercussion against me also since I was the cosigner.
Senator Kerry. Mr. Crone, what I need to do at this point because of the timeframe and we still have a couple of people here for the OPIC piece, you've been very kind to make yourself available and I appreciate it enormously. I would like the hearing to continue with counsel this afternoon. If you could just make yourself available to him because I wanted to ask a few more questions. And I do want to pursue a couple of more aspects of the OPIC information that was available or not available at the early stages, if we could.
So, if you could, once we end the hearing, meet with Mr. Blum to arrange a time for this afternoon and we can continue that, I'd appreciate it. And I thank you very much for your willingness to come forward on this. I think it's been helpful.
I know you're anxious to cover your liabilities here, and I don't blame you. I hope there's going to be a way to see that happen in the long run.
Mr. Crone. OK, yes. But this last question may be more hard to cover my liabilities than the first because I may be subject to some harassment now for this.
Senator Kerry. Harassment for what?
Mr. Crone. From Mr. Hull in Costa Rica for the information I have given you.
Senator Kerry. For which information?
Mr. Crone. On the airdrops and everything.
Senator Kerry. Well, if you have any reason to fear that somehow you may be subject to any harassment, as you know we will be more than pleased to try to make available the good auspices of the Embassy and others down there, not to mention Costa Rican authorities, to provide adequate notice to Mr. Hull that that is a felony, not to mention - it's a felony in this country because you're a witness before this committee. And if you undergo any harassment because of that, that will only further our interest in Mr. Hull.
But second, I think that the Costa Rican law also obviously provides adequate protection for that. It just so happens that I'm leaving later this evening for Costa Rica and will be there tomorrow and Sunday. And I'd be delighted to make sure that the Embassy people and others I talk to are aware of this and put on notice about it. And I will do that.
Mr. Crone. The Embassy people there in Costa Rica, they are protecting Mr. Hull also.
Senator Kerry. They're all protecting Mr. Hull? It's interesting. The Embassy people in Costa Rica have a particular interest in Mr. Hull getting the loan from OPIC?
Mr. Crone. Not to my knowledge.

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Senator Kerry. What do you mean by "they're protecting Mr. Hull"?
Mr. Crone. Well, the Costa Rican security guards, not the American Marines but the Costa Rican security guards have been told to kind of protect him. I mean ---
Senator Kerry. Who has put out that word? Do you know?
Mr. Crone. No. I have no idea.
Senator Kerry. How do you know that?
Mr. Crone. Well, if I could tell you in private it would be better.
Senator Kerry. Well, I'd be delighted to talk to you privately. This afternoon's discussion incidentally will be private between you and counsel. And I'll try to take part in some of that. Why don't we just recess your portion of the testimony at this point and we will talk further on this, I assure you, afterward. OK?
Mr. Crone. OK.
Senator Kerry. All right. Thanks very much.
If we could just have the other witnesses. Could Mr. Siple and Mrs. Hood come forward? Are they still here?
Mrs. Hood, if you want to move a little closer, that would be fine. Could you identify yourself, Mr. Siple?

STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS SIPLE, MIAMI, FL, AND
LOUELLA HOOD, BRADENTON, FL

Mr. Siple. Yes, sir. My name is Douglas Siple. I'm a Canadian.
Senator Kerry. OK. And Mrs. Hood, would you just identify yourself for the record?
Mrs. Hood. Yes. My name is Louella Hood. My husband is John Hood who owns Hacienda Amigos. I am the secretary.
Senator Kerry. OK. If you would both raise your right hands please.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Senator Kerry. I'll let counsel begin the questioning.
Mr. Blum. Mr. Siple, how did you first come to know that your ranch was being described as John Hull's ranch?
Mr. Siple. By seeing a program on television in Miami in I believe it was late February 1986.
Mr. Blum. You were in Miami and you turned on the television and there was a program about John Hull's ranch?
Mr. Siple. That's right.
Mr. Blum. And you said, "My God, that's my ranch"?
Mr. Siple. Well, reasonably that it is; yes.
Mr. Blum. Now, how did you become involved in investing in land in Costa Rica?
Mr. Siple. Well, I realize you're running late and I don't want to take up a lot of your time. But I think I should explain that I sort of inherited Mr. Hull from a very good and very old friend. It was a Mr. Hunter Moody from Decatur, IL, who I had know for 35 years and we had done a great deal of business together. We imported from Canada large numbers of airplanes over the years and he had disposed of them in the States. And it had been a very good relationship and a lucrative one.
So, in December 1972 Moody and his wife and my wife and I went in Moody's airplane to Costa Rica on a vacation. And we met

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